Bookshop Ceo Andy Hunter’s Crusade To Save Books From Amazon

Today, I’m talking pinch Andy Hunter, nan CEO of Bookshop.org. Bookshop, astatine its core, is simply a website that lets conception bookshops each complete nan authorities — and successful a less different countries — discarded their books online. If you want a book, you spell to Bookshop and click bargain — it’s conscionable arsenic easy arsenic Amazon, isolated from a conception bookstore gets immoderate of nan money.

Just recently, Bookshop launched ebooks to compete pinch Amazon’s elephantine Kindle business — a elemental thought pinch immoderate nosy and analyzable Decoder problems conscionable nether nan surface.

Andy started Bookshop successful January 2020 aft years of vexation pinch Amazon. It was a bad clip for nan world, arsenic covid-19 pandemic lockdowns were astir to begin, but it was a awesome clip to motorboat a website that fto group support their conception stores without going outside. And truthful nan pandemic propelled Bookshop done immoderate very speedy early growth.

Bookshop is simply a mission-driven institution pinch a beardown philosophy, and that maturation has paid a batch of money retired to bookstores. Right location astatine nan apical of Bookshop’s website is simply a ample antagonistic telling you really overmuch money it’s raised for conception booksellers. Right now, that number is overmuch than $35 million. So I wanted to know: really does that money work, and really tin Andy walk to support nan lights connected pinch truthful overmuch of Bookshop’s profit going backmost to conception bookstores? And I too wanted to cognize really he’s making tin money to expand, because that explanation into ebooks is simply a ample one.

There are plentifulness of interesting, replacement e-readers retired location — nan Kobo has a following, and galore folks coming astatine The Verge are fans of nan Boox Palma. But nan Kindle handily leads nan marketplace. And Amazon has a ample chokehold not conscionable connected nan Kindle content, but too connected nan hardware itself, which really doesn’t publication different kinds of books.

So, for Andy and Bookshop to get what they want, they’re astir apt going to personification to cogwheel up for a ample conflict against Amazon to make judge nan Kindle tin publication their files. That’s absolute axenic Decoder bait. You’ve sewage antitrust, closed app stores, grounds formats, and DRM — we really sewage into it. The absorbing comparisons successful my mind are nan antitrust cases Epic Games revenge against Apple and Google, and you’ll comprehend america talk successful grade astir those.

Andy’s too consenting to premier immoderate different fights, arsenic needed. Books, aft all, are speech. They’re 1 of nan oldest ways we personification of sharing and communicating ideas, and nan governmental business successful nan United States correct now is very conflict to immoderate ideas. Books that talk race, gender, and sexuality are being banned crossed nan country, and those bans are ramping up arsenic nan Trump guidance goes to warfare against immoderate it thinks DEI is, utilizing a beautiful self-serving position of “free speech.” As you tin imagine, personification for illustration Andy, who fundamentally wants books to thrive, has beautiful beardown feelings astir each of that — ones that spell acold beyond partisan politics.

One connection earlier we start: you’ll comprehend Andy opportunity that Bookshop is simply a B Corp. That’s a emblematic certification from an connection called B Lab, which says a institution is strategy successful circumstantial ways that don’t conscionable usage shareholders. It’s an absorbing thought pinch a analyzable history and moreover a mini contention successful nan cognition — we’ll nexus an explainer successful nan show notes.

Okay, Bookshop.org CEO Andy Hunter. Here we go.

Andy Hunter, you’re nan CEO and laminitis of Bookshop.org. Welcome to Decoder.

Thank you, acknowledgment for having me.

I’m excited to talk to you, there’s a batch going on. Bookshop is five, and you just launched ebooks. It sounds for illustration there’s a brewing conflict pinch Amazon that I’m eager to talk about. Let’s commencement astatine nan start. Bookshop is five. Tell america what it is, really it works, really you kicked it off.

I was moving successful nan publishing manufacture for astir 15 years. I started immoderate companies, Electric Literature and Literary Hub, and immoderate mini presses, Catapult, and worked arsenic diligent for Counterpoint and Soft Skull Press. During this time, I was watching arsenic independent bookstores tried to conflict disconnected Amazon, and I watched arsenic astir half of nan independent bookstores successful nan authorities went retired of business, arsenic Amazon’s marketplace banal grew to astir 60 percent of each nan books sold. And I knew that to personification a early pinch independent bookstores was going to require immoderate benignant of e-commerce solution, truthful that independent bookstores could discarded books online and compete pinch Amazon for those sales, aliases different it was conscionable going to beryllium a world extinction arena for these stores. But I too knew, arsenic a publisher, really important independent bookstores are to having a divers civilization astir reference and books. And truthful I knew that they were worthy saving.

So I launched Bookshop.org successful 2020 to fto independent bookstores to easy discarded books online and fto group who were buying books online to easy support their conception independent bookstore. And correct aft it launched, nan pandemic deed and past abruptly we onboarded millions of customers and millions of bookstores, and it’s been a chaotic thrust ever since.

Bookshop.org is simply a website. You tin spell to it, you tin browse books. I really conscionable bought a book coming connected Bookshop.org. I bought a bunch during nan pandemic, for illustration you said, and past I was like, I should spell cheque this retired again. You go, and past you’re supporting conception bookstores erstwhile you really acquisition nan book, but you don’t clasp nan inventory, you’re not shipping, they’re doing each that work. How does that play out?

It’s a funny story, but actually, nan benignant of lightbulb went disconnected complete my caput erstwhile I was reference an article astir Kardashians’ cosmetics wherever I publication that they were a institution pinch only six employees, but they were trading hundreds of millions of dollars’ worthy of products because they didn’t do immoderate of nan fulfillment. They conscionable were moving an Instagram channel. And I’m like, oh, I deliberation a books wholesaler could do nan aforesaid constituent for books, because bookstores personification really constricted inventory and they personification very constricted credit, and they personification very constricted portion and tech know-how and each of that. So, nan thought that bookstores could ever compete pinch Amazon that has millions of books successful inventory is like, nary way.

But location are book wholesalers that do personification millions of books successful inventory that personification nan capacity to alloy a book consecutive to a customer. So by partnering pinch wholesalers, we’re tin to do direct-to-consumer income pinch a very bladed team, and nan bookstores tin discarded hundreds of thousands of books without ever having to touch a book, without ever having to do nan customer service, without ever having to liking astir returns and damages and each that stuff. So it makes it ace easy for them, and it’s really worked awesome truthful far.

Tell maine really nan incentives connection up there; I’m very funny astir this. So there’s your company, there’s nan wholesaler. Why do you petition nan bookstore successful nan mediate to return a cut?

Because if we weren’t supporting bookstores, cipher would bargain from us, really. I mean, nan afloat logic that we personification customers successful nan first spot is because group are like, “You cognize what? I want to support my money successful my community, I want to support my conception bookstore. Jeff Bezos doesn’t petition my money, I want to opt retired of nan Amazon ecosystem.” And truthful that’s our rationale, and that’s too our mission. We’re a B Corporation and a usage corporation, truthful we put our ngo supra financial gain.

So yeah, we would make a ton overmuch money if we didn’t spot nan bookstores, but too group would personification nary logic to shop pinch us. We springiness complete 80 percent of our profit to independent bookstores. It’s been $35 million, really — perchance coming is going to beryllium $36 cardinal — to conception bookstores successful nan US and $40 cardinal to conception bookstores worldwide. So, our afloat logic for being is supporting nan stores.

So erstwhile nan bookstore owners find to recreation to you and mobility up, do they get to talk their rate? Do you conscionable show them, “This is really overmuch you’re going to get, we conscionable petition your brand”? What do they personification to do and really much, and really do they conflict for a amended deal?

Well, they don’t personification to conflict for a amended woody because we springiness them nan afloat profit of each their sales. So, nan woody is astir arsenic bully arsenic it tin get without america going retired of business. We fto group to onboard, it takes astir a half an hour. That was really important during nan pandemic because they each went into lockdown and abruptly these thousands of stores were like, “Oh, 1 clip I’ll get astir to getting a website.” We’re like, “Oh, we personification to commencement trading online immediately.” So, it only takes astir a half an hr for a bookstore to group up connected Bookshop and commencement trading books to their customers, which is really captious to its success. And that’s information of how; making it easy was nan only measurement to make it work.

And each bookstore, if they discarded a book directly, they get nan afloat profit disconnected nan book sale. And if we discarded a book done an affiliate, for illustration we’ve sewage relationship programs pinch The New York Times, The Atlantic, past we springiness booksellers a 3rd of nan profit, a 3rd of nan profit goes to support Bookshop, and a 3rd of nan profit goes to nan affiliate. And past we’ve sewage immoderate customers that conscionable dive into Bookshop, bargain a book consecutive without selecting a bookstore to support. In those cases, we divided nan profit betwixt Bookshop and nan profit pool, which goes to each nan bookstores, and that’s what benignant of pays our bills.

Which of those slices of nan pastry is nan biggest?

It’s really precisely 50/50. So, nonstop income and bookstore and relationship income are each 50 percent of nan revenue, beautiful overmuch consistently since 2021. In nan opening because bookstores were closed, 70 to 80 percent of nan income were bookstore sales, but erstwhile they reopened and their customers came backmost into nan stores, that dropped.

Do you spot that shifting complete time, aliases is 50/50 beautiful stable?

We effort to support it stable. We effort to make judge that customers relationship pinch bookstores because we personification our bottommost connection that we’re trying to hit, but we don’t want to personification overmuch customers to nonstop aliases obfuscate successful immoderate measurement nan expertise to return a bookstore, because we’re ngo based and we want arsenic overmuch money going to nan bookstores arsenic possible. So we’re going to hopefully support it there.

How do you deliberation astir maturation successful that scenario? We’re going to talk astir a caller initiative. You launched ebooks, you’ve sewage to evidently locomotion money to motorboat a caller thing. But if you’ve sewage 50 percent of nan afloat gross going retired to bookshops, you’ve sewage to move someway to do caller things, right?

You move by expanding nan wide size of nan pie, right? If past year, astir $25 cardinal was associated pinch bookstores, and past adjacent twelvemonth if we tin keep… As agelong arsenic we make tin to net our bills, nan bookstore accusation could spell up to $50 cardinal aliases $100 million. There’s truthful overmuch money that Amazon is making trading books each year, billions, that correct now we’re astatine astir 1 percent of Amazon’s marketplace share, and 75 percent of our customers utilized to shop pinch Amazon.

So each we personification to do is get different 1 percent of Amazon’s customers to switch, and past Bookshop and bookstores are going to immoderate beryllium making doubly arsenic overmuch money. So, that’s our plan. Our strategy is to spell aft Amazon customers, peculiarly astatine this sensation infinitesimal wherever group are like, ‘I’m not comfortable pinch Bezos kissing Trump’s ring, and I want to beryllium retired of that afloat ecosystem. I want to support my money successful my conception community.’ Then this is simply a cleanable clip to move and commencement supporting independent conception bookstores erstwhile you bargain your books.

I want to talk astir that successful depth, but I conscionable want to enactment connected nan basics for a minute. Are you profitable now?

Last twelvemonth we weren’t, but that’s because we’ve been putting astir of our expenses into building retired this ebook platform. We were profitable for nan first 3 years, erstwhile we personification been not profitable for 2 years, and past we’re projecting a profit this year.

How is Bookshop.org structured? How galore group do you have? How are they organized?

We’ve sewage astir 40 people. We personification a income team, a trading team, a dev team, and an operations team, and a customer activity team. And we effort to enactment really lean. We personification complete $1 cardinal successful gross for each azygous employee, and by staying lean, we’re tin to execute our mission, which is to springiness nan gross backmost to nan conception bookstores.

And past incorrect of those groups, which 1 has nan astir people? Is it engineering, is it onboarding?

It’s engineering. No, sorry, it’s customer service, and past engineering is simply a mini bigger than nan rest. Yeah, because we’re trying to create nan champion imaginable acquisition for nett shoppers who are consenting successful buying books. So, we want to beryllium nan champion shop to bargain books online, period, and that intends we personification to build retired our method infrastructure and we’ve sewage to really put successful that. So, that’s wherever our attraction is complete nan adjacent 5 years. We want, for illustration if you’re going to bargain a book online, this is nan champion spot to do it. You consciousness astatine location here, you emotion it, it’s sewage a batch of personality, which meshes pinch your characteristic arsenic a personification who loves books, each that. And truthful that requires a batch of development, a batch of personification acquisition work.

And are you expressed arsenic a website? Is location an app? I’m asking astir nan app because trading ebooks and integer instrumentality connected mobile phones is beautiful tricky.

Yeah, we launched nan app yesterday, and we do not support purchasing successful nan app. And nan logic for that is publishers opportunity that resellers tin get 30 percent margins erstwhile you discarded an ebook. So nan diligent gets 70 percent, you arsenic a retailer get 30 percent. Now, if you discarded it connected nan App Store, Apple says we get 30 percent. So that leaves 30 percent for Apple, 70 percent for nan publisher. Now that’s 100 percent, truthful that leaves 0 percent for nan bookstore. So you cannot discarded ebooks successful nan app and make moreover a penny, it’s impossible. So there’s nary premier but to circumvent nan App Store purchasing and portion customers to spell to nan website to bargain nan books, which is unfortunate because customers don’t understand that. They conscionable think, “You built this dumb app and I can’t bargain ebooks successful it, why not?” So you’ve sewage to effort to explicate it to them.

I’d opportunity what would beryllium logical is if you were a reseller of a integer bully that you would net Apple 30 percent of nan profit margin. Thirty percent of nan separator would beryllium reasonable, but by saying it’s a level 30 percent whether aliases not you’re a reseller, it makes nary consciousness because if your margins connected nan merchandise are 30 percent and they return 30 percent, past it’s abruptly intolerable to personification an ebook app, which is why Kindle, you can’t bargain nan ebooks successful nan app either, why you can’t bargain audiobooks connected Spotify’s app, each of that.

I want to recreation to that because it seems for illustration nan ineligible and regulatory information of nan puzzle is an important information of really you mightiness grow. But nan logic I asked astir that specifically is that those are ample decisions, right? Those are existential business questions. Can we put this fastener successful this app? Can we personification immoderate benignant of business if this fastener is here, moreover if nan personification acquisition is degraded successful immoderate way?

You too had to make different kinds of decisions, to beryllium a B Corp — which has been successful mode and retired of mode and comes backmost into mode — to position yourself against Amazon specifically. How do you make decisions? What’s your framework?

Well, I mean, nan first is alignment pinch nan mission. So, we’re very adjacent to nan booksellers. Everybody astatine this institution sewage into this because we wanted to build an replacement ecosystem to nan Amazon ecosystem, that was benignant of controlled by readers, writers, publishers, group who are really invested successful book culture. So that we don’t conscionable benignant of cede nan afloat territory of this incredibly culturally important merchandise to a azygous mega retailer. So, we each want that overmuch than anything.

And truthful for us, occurrence is building retired this web of a sustainable, independent ecosystem for bookselling and book lovers that can’t beryllium controlled by Amazon aliases immoderate different retailer. That’s number one. So, everything has to be… everything connected nan roadmap supports that extremity goal. And we effort to recreation nan champion ethical rules that we tin arsenic a company, because we cognize that group are shopping for america for ethical reasons. So we personification nett transparency. The B Corp institution that certifies companies said that we were successful nan apical 5 percent of each nan B Corps, according to our psyche policies and too nan bully we do successful nan world. So we sewage their Best for nan World designation, which we’re really proud of.

So we fundamentally effort to locomotion nan locomotion successful each way. And 1 logic for that is nan booksellers are very vocal and very independent people. And if we strayed from nan measurement and it seemed for illustration a money drawback aliases a bait and move wherever we were going to spell predatory, nan booksellers would freak retired immediately. So we personification to beryllium very transparent. We’ve sewage to get this afloat statement of independent booksellers connected board. And it’s very difficult to get a group of independent booksellers each aligned to nan aforesaid project, but now we personification 90 percent of nan bookstores successful nan authorities participating successful this project. We ne'er thought we would get to 90 percent, and that’s a grounds of really overmuch buy-in location is, and that buy-in comes from nan transparency and really we make decisions and really we govern ourselves.

A mates of years ago, I had James Daunt, who’s nan CEO of Barnes and Noble, on nan show, and he was making a akin benignant of proscription that Barnes and Noble had nan modular to spell compete pinch Amazon. And nan measurement that he would do it is he would benignant of springiness indie bookstores entree to his scale, his wholesaler relationships. Basically, spell for illustration nan AWS of bookstores, but for buying and trading books successful that way. I don’t cognize if that’s worked out, it’s worked retired for Barnes and Noble, but it sounds for illustration you’ve been tin to outcompete them pinch nan indie bookstores, right? They’re not arsenic reliant connected nan Barnes and Noble distribution system, they’re coming to you to do e-commerce.

Definitely.

How did you triumph there?

I don’t cognize if that was really a privilege for B&N. I deliberation B&N did a bully business of doing that pinch their internal, company-owned stores. But really we won, we went to each nan bookseller conferences. There’s location conferences, there’s nationalist conferences. We put members of nan American Booksellers Association connected our committee of directors. Our committee of committee really is mostly independent booksellers. We put successful our shareholder agreement, we put that we could ne'er discarded to Amazon aliases immoderate different awesome US retailer. So nan bookstores didn’t personification to liking astir america becoming big, past becoming reliant connected us, and past boom, Amazon buys us, we each get rich | | and they’re adjacent retired successful nan cold. So location were truthful galore things that we did to beryllium ourselves, but I deliberation forbidding nan discarded of nan institution to Amazon, putting independent booksellers connected our board, and really servicing booksellers first is what made nan difference.

You talked astir that cultural infinitesimal that we’re successful correct now. There’s a batch of pushback against nan various billionaires being onstage astatine Donald Trump’s inauguration, astatine this cognition that successful peculiar Jeff Bezos is kissing nan ring, because he owns The Washington Post and he wouldn’t fto them endorse Kamala Harris. There’s a batch of that going around. Have you seen an summation successful income that you tin spot to group leaving Amazon?

I cognize that astir apt nan listeners are each complete nan governmental spectrum. I tin opportunity that I personally americium worried astir nan Trump administration. And so, it’s weird for maine that each clip point that I spot bad happens, Bookshop benefits. COVID happened, it was terrible, and Bookshop boomed. As soon arsenic Trump won nan election, we saw income commencement to spell up. And past connected Trump’s inauguration clip and since, we’ve been up 75 to 100 percent twelvemonth complete year. So, we’ve seen a monolithic magnitude of customers who are switching from Amazon to Bookshop for these reasons.

Is that nan bookstores doing outbound marketing? Is that you sending messages? Is it conscionable group realizing they don’t want to usage Amazon and uncovering you? Where’s that maturation coming from?

It’s almost each relationship of mouth. The constituent astir being a direct-to-consumer e-commerce retailer that sends each of your profits location else, is that you don’t personification immoderate money for integer marketing. So, our integer trading money is 1 percent of our revenue. And moreover if we tried to put each these ads out, saying, “Support booksellers, not billionaires,” we wouldn’t personification nan reach. So, we spot connected relationship of mouth. And it’s almost each relationship of mouth. There are group connected Bluesky, group connected Threads, group connected Twitter who are each saying, “How do I get retired of Amazon? What alternatives are there?” And Bookshop.org ever comes up successful those conversations.

Now, to immoderate people it’s too bookstores and to immoderate people it’s too us, truthful each 3 of them mixed — and affiliates. We’ve sewage podcasts, newspapers, magazines, literate organizations, and influencers. They’re each Bookshop affiliates, truthful they fto their group know, too. Bookshop’s benignant of instrumentality — nan measurement that we sewage tin customers to compete pinch Amazon successful nan first spot — was by reaching retired to mini communities. So, we didn’t effort to say, “Okay, we want to personification 3 cardinal customers. We’re going to spell big.” We were like, “We want to personification 3 cardinal customers. We’re going to get 3,000 groups of businesses aliases organizations that each tin bring 1,000 customers.” And that’s really we’ve managed it truthful far. So, they’re each telling nan aforesaid communicative and telling group astir us.

I’m curious, you said erstwhile bad things happen, you spot growth. Obviously, there’s nan inauguration. Some of our assemblage thinks it was great. You’re right, immoderate of our assemblage thinks it was horrible. Can you spot successful nan books really nan temper is?

Yeah, absolutely.

Are group buying a batch of books astir fascism aliases whatever?

On Tyranny is ever a apical seller. There are too books for illustration Braiding Sweetgrass that are benignant of overmuch for illustration really to unrecorded bully and really to unrecorded pinch wisdom. I deliberation a batch of group are benignant of just, “The world is crazy and I petition to find immoderate benignant of psyche balance, aliases I petition to move disconnected nan world and find a measurement to unrecorded bully successful this environment.” And past you too personification each nan escapism. So, there’s a ton of fantasy, romance, and sci-fi being sold, because group conscionable want to opt retired and spell into a different world.

There’s a ample mobility successful America, perchance broadly successful nan world correct now astir who distributes what, wherever nan limits of platforms and free reside are. Bookstores traditionally conscionable enactment retired of it. They discarded everything. That’s nan idea. Do you consciousness that portion arsenic your assemblage aliases your customer guidelines gets overmuch politicized to not do kinds of things?

Absolutely. The American Booksellers Association ever had a committedness to free look arsenic information of their mandate. And our ngo is to support conception independent bookstores. Well, conjecture what? There are Christian conception independent bookstores, and truthful we’re not going to opportunity nary to them. So, we personification a very precocious modular for removing books. We do get portion each nan clip and we get portion from immoderate sides of nan equation. There was really a Wall Street Journal editorial that was angry astir america erstwhile successful nan books that we were featuring, but we too get angry comments from group connected nan acold left.

And I deliberation if you are committed to books, you’re committed to discourse, and authorities of ideas, and educating people, and promoting captious reasoning that allows them to parse nan ideas that are successful these books. And so, absolute dislike reside aliases lies is simply a play that we will surely propulsion point aliases point that is stolen aliases plagiarized. But if it’s civilian discourse, we’re going to fto group observe for themselves what they deliberation astir it.

I ever deliberation that’s truthful interesting, because nan book statement is old. The norms location personification withstood overmuch overmuch portion successful galore overmuch kinds of ways complete time. And you bring that into nan modern world, and level dynamics, and really group deliberation societal platforms should mean it. It does look for illustration there’s a existent hostility location between, “Boy, we’re committed to free expression. Also, group are going to outcry astatine america because these Harry Potter books are beforehand and center.” Does that really play retired for you astatine your scale? It seems for illustration Amazon is truthful ample they tin disregard it. It seems for illustration nan conception bookstore, you tin physically outcry astatine those people, but you’re correct successful nan mediate of that scale. How does that play retired for you?

I mean, it’s for illustration societal media flak and emails, but it has ne'er spell a suit aliases point for illustration that. And we are beautiful beardown astir what we believe, truthful it doesn’t root maine a ton of stress. I conjecture it causes maine nan astir accent erstwhile it’s personification who I activity together pinch ideologically, who feels somewhat betrayed by nan truth that we perchance are featuring a book aliases that we accepted an advertisement for a book that they disagree with. And it doesn’t personification to beryllium political. We could personification an advertisement for a book that’s astir fittingness that personification finds offensive. And we conscionable personification to effort to guidelines our ground, because if booksellers are going to commencement engaging successful deciding what books are okay aliases not okay for group to read, past we’re really screwed. It’s bad tin that nan government’s trying to find that. We petition to beryllium committed to letting group personification entree to information.

Do you spot that coming pinch nan Trump administration? It seems for illustration book bans and nationalist libraries and schoolhouse libraries are connected nan table. The adjacent constituent that happens is we outcry astatine our conception bookstores–

Well, they try.

That’s nan history. It happened successful nan ‘80s, it’s going to hap again now.

They tried to locomotion a measurement successful Texas that said if you discarded a book to a minor, it’s not appropriate. Or if you discarded a book to a room and that gets a insignificant entree to it, past you’re responsible and you’re liable. And that would’ve destroyed independent bookselling successful Texas. But thankfully, it was overturned by a judge, and truthful that is nary longer a threat. Now, nan Trump administration, I deliberation yesterday aliases nan clip before, said that location is nary specified constituent arsenic book bans. There’s nary book prohibition pandemic successful nan authorities and that it’s a hoax. And what they’re saying is that if you’re successful a room and you region each nan books astir trans group aliases cheery authorities aliases civilian rights, that’s not a book ban. That’s conscionable taking books that shouldn’t beryllium disposable to 18-year-olds and putting them down nan antagonistic aliases getting them retired of nan library, but group tin entree them immoderate different way.

So, they’re arguing astir what nan meaning of a book prohibition is. For us, it’s like, if you don’t personification entree to nan book, if you are taking entree distant from people, it’s censorship and it’s a book ban. And it should not beryllium allowed, moreover if it’s imaginable for that personification to still beryllium tin to get a book location else. And honestly, I deliberation it’s disingenuous, because I deliberation that if they did negociate to scrub each book of genderqueer retired of nan libraries, they would astir apt spell aft bookstores next. I don’t deliberation that they want group reference these books successful general.

So, I deliberation it’s going to beryllium a fight, but it’s decidedly a conflict that we’re committed to win. And hopefully, cooler heads prevail, because nan constituent astir banning opposing points of view, it doesn’t usually activity retired for nan group who are trying to prohibition those points of view. It’s ne'er really a bully idea. And past nan group who recreation adjacent tin conscionable flip it astir and do nan aforesaid constituent to your constituent of view.

I’m conscionable reasoning astir nan history of this. And I committedness you I’ll bring this to ebooks, because everything gets bigger erstwhile it’s digital. The problems magnify successful definite ways. But conscionable reasoning astir nan history of book bans aliases putting definitive lyric labels connected CDs, nan portion was ever connected nan retailers. In nan ‘80s and ‘90s and successful nan early 2000s, we didn’t want B. Dalton Booksellers to personification these books successful nan promenade that kids spell to, truthful we’ll portion nan retailers. We’ll portion Walmart to not discarded definite music, and that intends nan euphony is broadly not available. You correspond nan independent bookstores. If nan authorities comes and pressures nan bookstore, nan bookstore doesn’t personification nan resources to conflict back. If they recreation and portion you, you personification a conjugation of bookstores, you mightiness personification nan resources to conflict back. Do you spot that arsenic information of your domiciled here?

It’s chiefly nan domiciled of nan American Booksellers Association, who we are very intimately aligned with.

But you’ve sewage 90 percent of nan bookstores. That’s benignant of why I’m asking. The portion will recreation to you.

We will fight. If we personification to, we will fight. I’d alternatively not because we don’t personification a batch of money. But if we personification to, we’ll fight. And I will opportunity that it’s truthful hypocritical. It’s conscionable specified delirium because each 1 of these group who are screaming astir immoderate kid reading, seriously, Anne Frank. Anne Frank is 1 of nan books that they’re concerned astir because she talks astir sexuality erstwhile she’s 13 years old. And so, they’re concerned astir books for illustration Anne Frank’s The Diary of a Young Girl. Meanwhile, nan nett is filled pinch porn and nan astir screwed up, horrible things available. Any 13-year-old pinch Google tin find nan astir horrible constituent that they tin deliberation of successful an instant. And they’re each online. They’re either connected Discord aliases 4chan aliases whatever. They are not going to beryllium corrupted by a book.

If you’re lucky, they’re reference Anne Frank’s The Diary of a Young Girl. You personification to beryllium really fortunate if your kid wants to publication books successful nan first place. And nobody’s going to personification their worldview rocked and corrupted by immoderate of nan books that they’re trying to ban. It’s a complete charade. There is truthful overmuch worse worldly disposable to each kid, and they’ve each seen it connected nan nett each azygous day. The book prohibition constituent is just… Speaking of a hoax, they opportunity it’s a hoax, because it’s not really happening. I deliberation it’s a farce because nan group who are progressive are only doing it for governmental clout, leverage, fundraising. It’s not really astir protecting kids. If they wanted to protect kids from definite disturbing images aliases points of view, past they would beryllium looking astatine nan World Wide Web.

Let’s talk astir taking this task and making it digital. Because one, it does look for illustration you personification nan tummy for a fight, moreover if you don’t want to personification nan fight. But erstwhile you make everything digital, erstwhile you fto different group to group ebooks — which is simply a immense information of nan ebook arena successful nan inheritance that I want to get to. Once you personification distribution, that puts you successful a conflict pinch nan app stores and their fees, you’re successful a batch overmuch fights successful a batch of different ways. So, show me, why moreover commencement ebooks? Why unfastened nan doorway to this level of conflict successful bid to discarded a merchandise that Amazon fundamentally dominates nan marketplace for?

Well, I deliberation it starts pinch readers. One retired of each six books sold successful nan authorities is an ebook, and I can’t bargain it from my conception bookstore. I took a recreation pinch my kids to Europe. My kids wanted to publication ebooks; they had to bargain them done Kindle. Or if you’re very educated, you tin find point for illustration Kobo, which is an replacement platform. But basically, there’s nary measurement to bargain ebooks from your conception bookstore. That successful itself doesn’t make sense. Something is for illustration 15 to 20 percent of nan market, conception bookstores should beryllium information of that. And group that want to support conception bookstores should beryllium tin to do that erstwhile they bargain ebooks. So, that is astir too taking nan patient powerfulness retired of ebooks.

If 1 mega retailer is determining really ebooks are sold, what ebooks get marketed, what ebooks get exposed to readers, really nan commerce works, and really nan authors are promoted, and that retailer has its ain self-interest successful mind, that is not bully for nan afloat civilization astir books. It’s not bully for authors, it’s not bully for readers, it’s not bully for publishers. So, we petition to diversify nan ebook landscape. And we petition to springiness group who want to support their conception bookstores a measurement that they tin bargain ebooks and support their conception bookstore astatine nan aforesaid time. That was truthful important. And additionally, it’s a caller gross watercourse for bookstores.

Bookstores are ever hanging connected by their fingernails. We personification overmuch bookstores opening now than we’ve had successful nan past 15 years, but they were 1 downturn from disappearing. And so, if we tin unfastened up a caller gross stream, if they tin get 5 to 10 percent of their gross from ebooks, that’s going to beryllium a afloat crippled changer for them. It’ll make them truthful overmuch overmuch unafraid successful their communities and thief each of their outreach and each their programs that make them truthful valuable. So, it really accomplishes a batch of affirmative things each astatine once. And I deliberation that I personification a mini civilized indignation astir nan truth that location is simply a fight, that it shouldn’t beryllium a fight. These should beryllium unfastened systems wherever each retailer tin support nan aforesaid benignant of products, and each instrumentality tin publication nan aforesaid benignant of products nan measurement that euphony works.

What’s absorbing astir nan euphony manufacture is that it sewage digitized first done Napster, which had nary business model, and everyone was stealing everything. Then nan iPod, and location was a conflict complete [digital authorities management]. And Steve Jobs famously won nan DRM conflict pinch nan iPod. And they said, “Just group MP3s, DRM is ne'er going to work,” and nan euphony labels capitulated.

Then we moved to Spotify and we brought DRM back. Now, everybody has a streaming activity that streams DRM music. So it goes. With video, broadly, DRM conscionable won from nan beginning. Everything was ever DRM from nan start. Books could spell either way. A book is simply a PDF. I get a batch of galleys from authors who recreation connected Decoder, and I conscionable get PDFs pinch watermarks. And I’m like, “Why don’t books conscionable activity for illustration this?”

But nan publishers evidently want DRM. The Kindle grounds format is DRM to hellhole and back, and nary 1 different tin moreover publication it. There are different formats, but you’re astatine nan astir Decoder question of all: you’re successful a format warfare pinch a very precocious ‘90s DRM problem embedded successful nan bosom of it. How do you deliberation astir that problem? Is it that we petition a caller format? Is it that nan publishers petition to springiness up connected DRM because nan group want to net sloppy of nan beingness of piracy? What is nan style of that reside successful 2025?

I personification a somewhat overmuch nuanced view. I deliberation that if you spell retired into nan internet, astir 80 percent of readers don’t announcement aliases care. And 20 percent of them are adamantly and virulently against DRM. And past publishers, of course, are terrified of nan Napster days happening to their industry. They don’t want it to each beryllium piracy because nan signaling manufacture saw 80 percent of their gross vanish erstwhile euphony went digital, and they’ve brought it backmost now pinch Spotify and streaming, and truthful now they’ve recovered. But it was a ample blow. Publishers evidently don’t want that to happen.

I deliberation that if there’s a strategy that allows group to ain their books, ebooks, truthful they’re not leasing them but they really ain them. They don’t personification to liking astir a instrumentality taking them distant from them aliases retailers taking their books distant aliases making changes to their books aft they’ve purchased them, which we’ve seen pinch ebooks. So they should ain them, they should personification powerfulness of nan contented and they should beryllium portable. They should beryllium tin to put them connected immoderate instrumentality they want. I deliberation that location should beryllium a measurement to do that and still support authors paid. Because wholly removing each regularisation and conscionable being like, “Okay, we’re going to merchandise nan caller Harry Potter book arsenic a PDF and dream that group net for it.” I deliberation that they would suffer a monolithic nonaccomplishment of revenue.

And I peculiarly americium concerned astir authors moreover overmuch than I attraction astir publishing companies. Authors should get paid for their work. Artists should get paid for their work. Period. And truthful location should beryllium a strategy for artists to beryllium paid for nan activity of penning books and that needs to beryllium preserved. But DRM was implemented based connected Amazon’s designs and publishers moving pinch Amazon to forestall piracy. And that happened successful 2005, 2006, 2007. It’s been a agelong time. There’s caller technologies retired there. We tin find a measurement to create portable, elastic ebooks that are owned that still make judge that nan publishers and authors get paid.

That’s, I guess, my Holy Grail, and that’s not going to hap correct away. But successful 5 aliases 10 years, I would emotion to personification nan benignant of clout that Steve Jobs had successful saying, “This has to extremity aliases this has to change.” The constituent is, earlier you get that benignant of clout you really personification to personification immoderate customers. You personification to personification immoderate readers truthful that nan marketplace will comprehend to you.

So what benignant of files are you trading today?

They are almost each DRM protected utilizing LCP DRM, which is simply a caller standard, which is simply a awesome standard. But that’s because awesome publishers require it. And past we personification a mini action of DRM-free ebooks that group will beryllium tin to bargain and download and usage connected immoderate instrumentality they want. And we’re going to beryllium expanding that DRM-free action truthful that we extremity up pinch hopefully a catalog that is divers and has perchance half DRM-free and half publisher-supported DRM.

The Kindle exemplary useful because Amazon sells nan Kindle hardware astatine a nonaccomplishment aliases break moreover maybe, and past they evidently presume that you’re going to bargain tons of books because it’s each a closed ecosystem. You don’t personification immoderate hardware yet. A batch of group for illustration having hardware. Does your exemplary support you trading inexpensive hardware?

I deliberation it does. If we spell that route, we’re going to do it first done crowdfunding, for illustration an indie replacement to nan Kindle wherever you tin support your conception bookstore. And we haven’t decided whether we’re going to effort that aliases not. We’re going to make that determination successful a less months. But we already cognize it useful connected devices for illustration Boox, which is an Android e-reading instrumentality that is alternatively celebrated and our Android app useful awesome connected that. We’re going to activity pinch Kobo to make judge that group who bargain ebooks from their conception bookstores tin publication it connected Kobo, and we’re going to conscionable effort to create arsenic overmuch elasticity arsenic possible.

When we launched, a batch of group wanted america to lick each azygous problem pinch ebooks connected motorboat day, but that’s not possible. We’re small. We raised $2 cardinal to do this afloat thing. Fable, which is different ebook company, raised $40 cardinal to do this. Scribd has raised $200 cardinal to do ebooks. We are small. We personification a hundredth of nan resources that our competitors have. In nan suit of Amazon, we personification astir apt 1 10,000th of nan resources that they have.

But we do deliberation that we will beryllium tin to create nan champion business and level for e-reading. It’s conscionable going to return a less years earlier we tin really do everything we can. And we want group to beryllium tin to bargain an ebook from their conception bookstore and publication it connected their Kindle, too. But we petition Amazon to springiness america permission, to fto america to say, “Send this to your Kindle,” and personification that sync pinch a user’s Kindle account. Which hopefully they’ll springiness to us, but it’s going to return clip for america to talk that.

I want to recreation to that, because that seems for illustration nan ample upcoming fight, but let’s conscionable enactment pinch nan different readers for a second. Basically successful nan world there’s nan Kobo, which a batch of group like. There’s nan Nook, which still exists, nan Barnes and Noble Nook. I don’t cognize if that is very celebrated connected your radar, but it’s retired location and exists. And past location is nan Boox Palma and nan ecosystem of fundamentally Android devices pinch E Ink screens. The Verge squad loves nan Boox Palma. We talk astir this bizarre mini constituent each nan time.

There’s a value there. The Boox Palma and that ecosystem, they’re Android devices. You tin put your app connected location and that’s nan support. That’s each nan overmuch thief you petition from them. They’re moving nan Google Play Store, your app’s successful nan store, you tin support your ain DRM standard, you tin do immoderate you want to do. The Kobos of nan world are small for illustration that. They’re overmuch integrated successful immoderate way. You’ve sewage to activity consecutive pinch them to support your modular and your DRM.

That’s right.

That mightiness implicate their business exemplary because they’re astir apt readying connected purchases connected their device. How do those negotiations look?

Well, pinch Boox it’s beautiful simple. I nonstop them emails each nan time, and they ne'er represent maine back.

Because your app is conscionable successful nan store, right?

Yeah.

To immoderate people mobile devices are open, they’re open. But pinch Kobo, they’re closed.

Yeah. So Boox, it useful connected Boox. I emotion it. I wish I could talk to them because I deliberation that we could activity together more. And truthful if anybody from Boox listens to this podcast, represent maine back. But for Kobo, they want to support america and we want to support Kobo readers. So we will build a instrumentality to beryllium tin to send, to bargain an ebook from your conception bookstore and publication it connected your Kobo.

Now, location is simply a threat to Bookshop successful that Kobo too sells ebooks. And truthful if group are buying Kobos because they want to publication Bookshop ebooks, they could move and conscionable retired of laziness aliases deficiency of knowledge, conscionable extremity up buying ebooks from Kobo, and that wouldn’t beryllium great. But we effort to participate into these agreements pinch bully faith. And I deliberation that nan Kobo squad has a batch of respect. I cognize that their CEO has a awesome reputation. So I’m reasoning if our customers want it and Kobo wants to support it, we’re going to spot them to not effort to bargain up each our customers and we’re going to support Kobo.

Do they personification to do point emblematic to support your DRM aliases your grounds format?

Yeah, I deliberation they will. Not a immense engineering lift, but they’ll personification to locomotion a less weeks connected integration.

And past erstwhile I deliberation astir different platforms that are benignant of similar, Roku comes to mind, right? Roku is beautiful open, they’ll return immoderate app that wants to play, but past they return a trim of nan advertizing that appears crossed each nan apps. And sometimes we comprehend astir immoderate conflict successful those relationships. Does Kobo inquire for a trim of your gross to look connected their activity to do that work?

They personification not yet, no. I deliberation that they will, I ideate that they conscionable want to discarded overmuch and that’s their motivation.

So that’s nan alignment, right? And I benignant of want to drill connected this a mini bit, too. You guys are aligned because you want to return marketplace banal distant from Amazon.

Yeah, that’s right.

So you’d for illustration to conscionable discarded immoderate books that Amazon isn’t selling. That’s beautiful zero-sum. I deliberation Kobo would for illustration to say, “Our instrumentality is overmuch elastic than nan Kindle. Look astatine this immense database of supported partners.” It feels for illustration immoderate you study from Kobo is not going to beryllium applicable to nan conflict you personification pinch Amazon.

No, it’s not going to really beryllium nan same.

Let’s talk astir Amazon then. I tin spot nan broader ecosystem. There’s an connection that you should conscionable fto Amazon and nan Kindle beryllium immoderate it is, and you should necktie group distant to this replacement ecosystem and say, “Look astatine really bad that is. It’s locked you in. Look astatine really unfastened nan world of nan Kobo and nan Boox Palma is.” I personification not 1 but 2 e-readers. Innovation is happening here. And past there’s nan connection that says you should conscionable spell conflict Amazon and say, “Let maine discarded books connected your hardware.” It seems for illustration you’re going to spell premier nan fight. Why are you picking nan fight?

Well, unfortunately, I spent nan past 5 years bad-mouthing Amazon, truthful asking nicely astir apt won’t work. But I will opportunity nan first constituent we’re going to do is inquire nicely because it doesn’t make consciousness for you to personification to bargain an ebook from Amazon successful bid to publication it connected your Kindle. And we cognize that they did an integration pinch Libby to fto group who return retired room books to publication them connected their Kindle. So we cognize it’s possible. We cognize that it took a mates of years for Amazon to activity together to it and to facilitate it, truthful this isn’t going to beryllium a speedy fight.

But I deliberation our first tack is going to beryllium to spell to Amazon and say, “Hey, independent bookstores are successful trouble. A batch of independent bookstore customers personification Kindles. They want to usage them. They want to bargain their ebooks from conception bookstores. Be nan amended company. Do nan correct thing. Let group publication these connected their Kindles.” If Amazon says yes, past we’re going to denote that group tin publication ebooks connected their Kindle they bought from nan conception bookstores, past we’re done.

If Amazon says no, past it’s an antitrust rumor because you can’t personification a instrumentality that has 85 percent of nan marketplace for e-readers and say, “Actually, you’ve sewage to bargain everything connected this device. You’ve sewage to bargain it from us.” That’s balanced to if Apple said connected nan iPhone, you tin only bargain euphony from Apple Music. You’re not allowed to personification Spotify aliases immoderate different level title, whatever. No different euphony is allowed connected nan iPhone. You personification to bargain it from Apple Music because of piracy. And you too can’t watch Netflix connected your iPad anymore. No, you’ve sewage to spell done Apple TV and you personification to download each of your movies from Apple TV arsenic bully because we’re worried astir piracy, truthful we can’t fto Hulu aliases Netflix aliases whatever. Obviously, cipher would guidelines for that. It would beryllium insane.

Back successful nan ‘80s erstwhile Microsoft was trading each transcript of Windows and they were like, “You personification to usage Microsoft Internet Explorer,” that was an antitrust issue, too. And Netscape successfully sued them, and Microsoft had to unfastened it up. When you personification complete powerfulness of a marketplace and you’re shutting retired each of these contented sellers based connected your ownership of nan hardware, you personification an antitrust risk. And truthful I deliberation that we personification a beardown suit that arsenic a hardware manufacturer, they personification a very celebrated information of hardware. That’s great. They can’t powerfulness wherever group bargain things successful bid to usage it connected nan hardware.

I dislike to beryllium pedantic, but I consciousness for illustration nan CEO of a bookstore institution is nan correct personification to beryllium pedantic with. The Justice Department sued Microsoft and tried to break them up. That started pinch Clinton, went to Bush, and they yet settled. Microsoft didn’t triumph aliases lose, they conscionable ended up nether a consent decree that Microsoft will show you distracted them for years and allowed Netscape and whoever different to thrive. It’s overmuch overmuch analyzable than Netscape, but that’s nan style of it.

That’s too nan style of a batch of things that are happening now successful nan antitrust world. Google is being sued and nan authorities would for illustration to break disconnected Chrome from Google. That rhymes pinch nan Microsoft case. Apple is being sued by nan Justice Department and we’ll spot really that goes. Epic Games famously has sued Apple and Google. That feels for illustration nan astir nonstop comparison to what you’re saying astir Amazon. Epic sued Google. They won because Google has to portion its partners, it has to portion Samsung and Motorola and whoever else, to support powerfulness of nan phones erstwhile they tally Android. And truthful there’s a batch of woody making and contracts and grounds that Google exerts this portion connected its partners. And truthful Epic won because they were tin to show that pressure.

They overmuch aliases small mislaid against Apple because Apple doesn’t personification to exert portion connected anyone. They don’t personification to behave anticompetitively erstwhile it’s their ain telephone successful their ain store. And that’s what you’re up against coming pinch nan Kindle, right? It’s Amazon’s device, it’s their store. They personification nan Apple precedent that’s going to say, “Well, you ain nan afloat thing, extremity to tail. You’re not doing point anticompetitively because there’s nary 1 different successful nan mix.” And you’re going to personification to show, “Well, this is harming consumers. It’s raising prices.” How are you reasoning astir that conflict fixed that context?

Apple has Android to constituent to saying, “We don’t powerfulness this market.” So nan telephone marketplace is very divers compared to nan e-reader, E Ink instrumentality marketplace wherever Amazon has a very, very locked down powerfulness of it. And each books and Kobo are conscionable mini fractions of nan marketplace compared to Amazon’s control. So I deliberation that there’s a overmuch stronger connection that location isn’t different spot to go.

If you’re an independent bookstore and you want to discarded books, ebooks to your customer, they’ve almost each sewage Kindles and asking them to bargain a different instrumentality is onerous. How is it harming consumers? I deliberation that that connection will personification to beryllium overmuch for illustration really is this harming mini businesses? It decidedly harms mini businesses because it makes it intolerable for them to discarded ebooks to their customers. And nan overmuch that you personification marketplace control, decidedly successful position of discounts, regular deals, sales, that benignant of thing, independent bookstores can’t create their ain ecosystem.

So perchance an writer would beryllium like, “Okay, I emotion my conception bookstores, truthful I’m going to do a emblematic woody wherever for my conception bookstores they tin discarded my ebook for $1.99 for nan adjacent six weeks.” They can’t do that correct now because of Amazon’s powerfulness of nan market. So if we personification a overmuch divers market, past there’s title betwixt them and past perchance consumers will benefit.

I’ve asked a fistful of questions astir Epic. They’ve been astatine nan vanguard of fighting nan App Store, antitrust fights. Have you talked to [Epic CEO] Tim Sweeney? Does he personification immoderate tips for you?

No, I would emotion to, but I deliberation Bookshop is conscionable becoming ample tin that we would beryllium connected group for illustration that’s radar. We were an underdog pinch almost nary backing and we didn’t beryllium 5 years ago. And now we’re becoming ample tin that group are noticing us, and truthful I’m hoping to personification those kinds of conversations now.

The different antitrust suit that I deliberation astir successful this sermon is really a books case. The Justice Department, I believe, sued Apple because it wanted to create caller kinds of contracts to compete pinch Amazon, to put books connected nan iPad astatine nan beginning. There were immoderate very analyzable dynamics astir pricing and who would get to worth what and how, and astir favored federation trading agreements. And successful nan end, Apple lost and it feels for illustration they too stopped caring astir books astatine all. They’re not a competitor. We personification hardly moreover mentioned them successful this context. And Amazon still dominates nan marketplace. Have you looked to that suit astatine all? Is location point to study from that? Because I deliberation astir group would show you that 1 was a failure. It didn’t execute its goals, moreover though they won.

I don’t cognize what nan Justice Department was thinking, but that was a ample privilege for them and it was a ample gift to Amazon. I mean, what I learned from that is beryllium very, very observant not to collude pinch anybody. Be very observant talking astir discounts, talking astir strategical plans pinch diligent partners, et cetera. So we don’t do that. I mean, I’m very unfastened astir what our ambitions are.

I’ll talk connected a podcast astir them, but I don’t spell into immoderate backmost rooms because I deliberation that’s what really screwed complete Apple and nan publishers, is that they were benignant of plotting “how do we apprehension nan ebook marketplace from Amazon and create a overmuch divers ecosystem for illustration Bookshop?” It’s for illustration we’re trying to do nan aforesaid thing. We want to create a divers ecosystem astir ebooks, too, but we’re not for illustration smoking cigars successful nan backmost room of Penguin Random House trying to fig retired really to do it. We were conscionable openly operating and trying to conscionable talk contracts pinch group and activity incorrect existing frameworks.

I will opportunity nan only constituent I genuinely retrieve astir nan Apple ebooks suit was that location was immoderate grounds that location were backmost rooms and Eddy Cue was successful nan backmost rooms drinking vino and making deals. And to maine arsenic a babe reporter, my eyes are open, I was like, “There are backmost rooms?”

Exactly.

It’s very good. Isn’t Apple nan bigger problem coming aliases Google nan bigger problem here, that you can’t conscionable straightforwardly discarded integer products successful your app? Wouldn’t that fto you compete against nan Kindle overmuch overmuch than conscionable caput up fighting Amazon?

It would, and that’s different ample information of it. So arsenic I deliberation I said successful nan opening of nan podcast, if Apple wants this 30 percent, that’s fine. But it should beryllium 30 percent of nan disposable profit margin, not 30 percent of nan surface worth because nan surface worth does not bespeak what nan profit is for america arsenic a retailer. And if Apple was like, “We’re going to return 30 percent of each of your book income aft you net nan publishers,” we would beryllium trading tons of ebooks connected Apple. And perchance that’s a logical position and we could get them to do it. I deliberation that nan logic that they wouldn’t do it is not because it doesn’t make sense. I deliberation they wouldn’t do it because they don’t want to suffer immoderate leverage. They’re trying to guidelines very firmly against things for illustration gaming companies, et cetera.

And truthful to make point that would look for illustration a concession, moreover if it made sense, I don’t cognize if they would do it, but we’ll effort for sure, because we don’t want customers to personification to jump done hoops. Literally, I had an employee’s mom effort to bargain an ebook yesterday and beryllium like, “Oh, I don’t understand this app. I’m very excited astir you guys doing this, but I can’t bargain an ebook. I tin only adhd it to a integer wish list.” And she conscionable thinks we’re bad astatine our jobs. She doesn’t understand, no, there’s really an economical logic for this.

It’ll usage consumers, it’ll usage everybody if nan app stores change, but too it’s really important for E Ink devices to alteration because astir group who publication ebooks, they want to publication it connected an E Ink device, and Kindle is by acold nan astir popular. So, I’m gladsome that books exist. I personification too reached retired to reMarkable. I’ve been reaching retired to each these E Ink companies, nary of them represent maine back. It’s very sad. But 1 clip they will. Maybe now that we’ve been successful The New York Times astir this and now that I’m connected this podcast, they’ll commencement penning maine backmost and we tin really commencement pushing their products because we personification complete 3 cardinal customers. We personification complete 2,200 portion locations. There’s a batch of opportunity for different E Ink companies to spell successful and usage e-reading arsenic a measurement successful to spell a overmuch overmuch celebrated device. And truthful I’m looking for group to partner pinch connected that.

The underlying personification acquisition that makes each this activity is really conscionable astir seamlessness. Right? You bargain 1 of those devices and perchance you bought immoderate books from Bookshop, and perchance you bought immoderate books from nan autochthonal Kobo experience, and perchance you’ve bought immoderate Kindle books. You’re benignant of right. I support making nan comparison of Roku, but you’re benignant of correct wherever group are pinch streaming video now, which is, I personification a cardinal different pieces of contented crossed a cardinal services and nary 1 has built a UI that harmonizes it all.

Yeah.

It’s moreover weirder pinch books because it’s conscionable matter files. It’s crazy that nan DRM tin silo matter files successful that way. Is location immoderate push to letting different apps publication nan files you’re trading aliases alternatively letting your app publication nan Kindle files? Because that’s what you really want, is simply a unified library.

I would emotion it. I deliberation each integer contented should beryllium portable, and I’m not a ample blockchain person. I deliberation a batch of it has been hype and fume and mirrors, but blockchain makes consciousness for maine successful that regard. There should beryllium immoderate benignant of portable ownership of integer instrumentality that is verifiable, that tin powerfulness piracy but too allows group to say, “This is my ebook. This is my movie. I’m getting a caller device. I’m switching from Apple to Samsung aliases whatever. I’m going to return my room pinch me.” That’s basic, everybody would activity together pinch that. So it’s going to return a agelong clip for that to happen, but I deliberation successful nan adjacent 5 aliases 10 years, it’s possible.

I consciousness for illustration I tin comprehend Decoder listeners pinch Kindles. They’ve been yelling astatine america nan afloat clip because nan send to Kindle fastener exists for EPUB files aliases whatever. It’s been location for a minute. Is that an acceptable add? Is that point you tin fto group conscionable do from nan Bookshop app?

We tin do it for DRM-free titles. Now of nan awesome US publishers, there’s only 1 imprint that supports DRM, which is Tor, which is simply a awesome taxable fabrication publisher. I emotion them. And Tor books would beryllium possible, and immoderate diligent aliases author, indie authors peculiarly that don’t require DRM, you could usage that for it. But location is nary measurement to bargain a DRM encrypted book, which intends there’s nary measurement to bargain a book from Penguin Random House, nan largest book diligent successful nan country, and publication it connected your Kindle without buying it from Amazon. So if you want to publication almost immoderate book connected The New York Times bestseller database connected your Kindle, you personification to bargain it from Amazon correct now because those publishers require encryption.

Changing that afloat scenery either by giving Amazon support aliases whether Amazon giving america support aliases enabling sideloading someway aliases “send to Kindle,” I’d opportunity that that’s style two. Phase 3 is looking astatine nan afloat measurement that ebooks are sold and owned and transcending nan benignant of leasing exemplary wherever group don’t really ain ebooks, they’re each connected lease. And figuring retired a amended measurement to do it wherever consumers tin bargain ebooks and personification a room that’s portable and that they tin ain for 100 years, that they tin springiness to their grandkids.

When you deliberation astir that, that’s for illustration a personification experience. Does nan exertion to do that beryllium coming extracurricular of perchance immoderate blockchain hype?

Yeah, not really, no. That’s why I’m saying a 10-year entity connected it.

There’s nan 10-year entity and past there’s conscionable nan reality of today. And I benignant of want to extremity coming because it’s overmuch aliases small wherever we started. The Biden administration, nan Lina Khan FTC, were astir apt broadly supportive of these ideas. Right?

I haven’t asked immoderate of them, but, “We should make things overmuch interoperable and nan ample companies should beryllium smaller,” broadly speaking, that was what nan Biden guidance thought. The Trump guidance is like, “Do overmuch mergers. We’re getting free of our antitrust enforcement.” How do you spot each these fights playing retired now that nan scenery has shifted truthful dramatically?

I deliberation it’s really dangerous, and I deliberation that group mistakenly deliberation that, “Oh, this is capitalism,” but it’s really monopolism. So capitalism and nan free marketplace tin beryllium fine, but if you effort to fto companies to spell monopolies and fto them powerfulness nan marketplace truthful they tin guarantee profitability and stifle competition, that’s nary longer what’s bully astir capitalism. And truthful while nan Trump guidance mightiness dress that they’re unleashing business, what they’re really doing is conscionable allowing for overmuch consolidation and overmuch control.

And if you personification different control, for illustration if Musk buys TikTok, which they’re floating, past you’ve sewage 1 personification successful title of 2 awesome societal media companies that past creates overmuch possibilities of bias, and it seems for illustration there’s going to beryllium very mini antitrust enforcement nether this administration. And past you look astatine what happened conscionable now pinch OpenAI and nan Chinese AI company, and you spot what tin hap to markets that are truthful reliant connected superior that they personification this awesome consolidation. They tin really get disrupted successful nan extremity by a free marketplace that is overmuch overmuch loose and distributed. So I deliberation nan Trump guidance and nan ample business group that deliberation that they’re going to deed nan jackpot by removing each regularisation are successful for a rude awakening because they’re not going to beryllium helping themselves successful nan end. Unless they tin scope complete control, successful which suit we’re each screwed, they’re going to extremity up being excessively ample to neglect and past being disrupted and failing.

Let maine conscionable bring that backmost to nan specifics of, “We’ve launched ebooks and there’s a conflict against Apple to fto you discarded ebooks connected your app and a conflict against Amazon to fto you publication ebooks connected their device.” Even conscionable successful nan past six weeks, nan dynamics of nan regulatory business that would fto you triumph aliases suffer those fights personification changed. Has it changed your appetite for those fights?

No, not astatine all. Time goes on. All those fights would return 5 years anyway. That’s why diplomacy is our first option. I’m going to effort to scope these done diplomacy, and I’m too going to effort to build really robust replacement systems that will make this small important. So we do a batch of different things astatine once, and past immoderate of them will triumph and immoderate of them will spell nowhere. But nan eventual extremity is we’re going to personification nan champion ecosystem and reference acquisition for group who bargain ebooks, and we’re going to usage that level to support conception businesses, support money successful people’s communities, support nan benignant of activism and endorsement of books and literate civilization that mini bookstores execute each clip successful their communities.

And truthful it’s each going to beryllium good, and it’s not going to beryllium owned by a elephantine monopolist. So that’s going to beryllium good, too. And it’s going to sphere book culture. And I personally consciousness for illustration my life would’ve been wholly quiet without books. I really americium 1 of these group who opportunity books changed my life aliases saved my life. And truthful giving backmost to that, preserving that culture, making judge that it’s sustainable and thrives successful nan adjacent 10, 20, 30 years is wholly worthy nan fight.

I can’t deliberation of a amended spot to extremity it. Andy, convey you truthful overmuch for joining Decoder.

Thank you!